"With YOUNG BLACKMAN, the main thing was to give artists the space to do what they couldn’t do in commercial spaces."
– Ed Young

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"There were many reasons YOUNG BLACKMAN ended – and we can keep those buried. Fundamentally, it ended because the question was 'do you want to be a commercial gallerist?' and the answer was absolutely not."
– Matthew Blackman

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"A lot of people at the Kimberly Hotel would say 'This isn’t art, it’s rubbish,' and I’d say more people have probably looked at Kendell Geers’ broken windows than have looked at most artworks in South Africa. Many people who were walking by YOUNG BLACKMAN at night would stop and look in. Many of them must have thought 'that must mean something…this must be meaningful in some way.' It may have gotten a lot of people angry, but a lot of people engaged with it."
– Matthew Blackman

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"YOUNG BLACKMAN informed Under Projects. It was an exciting thing to see in the first year of art school. I got my head shaved in Gerald Mashona’s exhibition. In hindsight, to me it filled a space in the ecology. The hope was to be in the National Gallery by forty years old, and in the commercial galleries by thirty, but what was I supposed to do in my twenties? And here was this space. This is where you are supposed to be experimental. It was helpful to see that step, which is usually missing in the post-art school narrative."
– Mitchell Gilbert Messina 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"Because independent project spaces are not archived or accounted for, there is the continuous feeling that you are the first person to do it. Once a project is gone, and all the people who saw it are gone, the people who come afterwards are left with no roadmap and no sense of what could be. I want to gather all of this information and make it publicly accessible so that you don’t have to be in the right ‘scene’ to find out about it."
– Khanya Mashabela

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"I think initially when we decided to make a project space, we wanted it to be ‘open open’. We did an open call and received many proposals and portfolios from people who had seen us on Instagram but who had never actually been to the space. And then we realised that there was something generative in tightening the exhibitions to people who actually contribute to a sense of community by being there all the time and attending exhibition openings. We like the idea of being very local and creating a tight-knit community, rather than wanting to be as big as possible and inviting big international names."
– Mitchell Gilbert Messina

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"What I have learned is that it is very easy to start a project space. You just have to be boldfaced and silly and reckless. The hard part is sustaining it."
– Mitchell Gilbert Messina

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"People are often talking about why there aren’t many independent publications writing about art, and the answer is very simple. When you plan an exhibition you have to pay for the space and perhaps some installation and production costs, but you don’t have to pay every single artist in order for them to agree to exhibit their work. Every writer will say that they need to be paid for the labour of writing for a publication because, unlike with artists, there is no chance of money coming in down the line if a work sells. Either you get paid for your writing or you don’t get paid."
– Khanya Mashabela

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"We all have other jobs. That is how we are able to afford the idea of Under Projects as a non-commercial space. The amount of capital needed to begin a project space is so high that it seems ridiculous to be an experimental space when you could be entrepreneurial instead. Part of the reason that Under exists is because of the pandemic. Rent became more affordable."
– Mitchell Gilbert Messina 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"These collaborations are a lot like bands in the sense that personal relationships exist alongside more formalised working relationships. Some bands last forever, but our band needed to break up. And that is what it was, a break-up."
– Matthew Blackman

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"Projects happen and then go away, happen and then go away. That is fine, as long as they keep on happening. If they want to become stable and continue, they grow into something else and take on another role in the art world. It is sad when projects end but they are probably at their most interesting when they first begin."
– Ed Young 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"I was interviewing Siemon Allen about Flat Gallery in Durban, and what struck me as being the biggest impetus to begin a project space is a sense of frustration about being excluded from something that you desperately want to be a part of. Perhaps there has to be a sense of exclusion for new project spaces to begin – 'This art scene is cliquey. Screw them, I’m going to start my own clique!'"
– Khanya Mashabela 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"YOUNG BLACKMAN began just as the financial crisis was happening. Ed [Young] has mentioned his irritation at the period of stagnation that happened after YOUNG BLACKMAN ended. I think this generation of artists and cultural workers needed their own financial crisis and that ended up being the pandemic."
– Khanya Mashabela 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"It does get to the point where it is difficult to not ‘consolidate’ your model. The first few shows are exhausting and you are making everything up from scratch. And then it gets to the point where you say to each other, 'a video always works best on that wall' and 'last time we put a sculpture there and it looked great.' Eventually the exhibitions become repetitive and you have to force yourself to open things up in some way. I think that is why the idea of relinquishing control of the space to someone else is interesting."
– Mitchell Gilbert Messina 

Invited practitioners joined curator Khanya Mashabela in a roundtable conversation centred on artist-led project spaces and collaborative exhibition-making. The engagement formed part of Mashabela’s wider research project, Social, and took place in the Gallery during Common, extending the exhibition’s reflections on collective action and shared resources. Matthew Blackman and Ed Young (YOUNG BLACKMAN), Carol Khaas and Lebo Kekanna (FEDE), and Mitchell Gilbert Messina (Under Projects) contributed to the conversation.

"For the past 25 years I've been working on a series of collection projects, whether it be records, stamps, newspapers, all dealing with this project of visualising South Africa. But, in a strange way, I trace those projects back to the Flat Gallery project – an informal exhibition space in Durban run by Ledelle Moe, Niel Jonker, Thomas Barry and myself. Documenting that experience was probably the first collection project as such, but I didn't think of it as a collection project when I was collecting the information. We had this thing called the 'Flat File', and every time something happened, if there was stuff left over, it went into that file."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"The Flat ended in 1995, and then at some point I started a Masters and my dissertation proposal was to document the history of the Flat. I don't know when it became a thing for me to try and concretise the history. I was just reading my foreword in the Flat book, and I think there is an interesting line. It says, 'I was struck with the realisation that to document history is to unavoidably invent history.' The things in the dissertation definitely happened, but it's hard to say whether or not we would talk about it in the same kind of way if we hadn't photographed it or if I hadn't written about it. You could say that about many things in history."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"The sad thing for me is that there is so much that remains undocumented, like all the major performances that took place at the Flat. We only really have the paper detritus from them…like a flyer, or poem, or a menu. But we don't actually have images of the performances, and some of them were pretty spectacular. I remember one performance where somebody was doing something with honey in their hair… I don't know, it would be great to have images of that. I guess that's always the curse of looking back and feeling like 'that was amazing' and I've only got the memory snapshot of it."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"I think what was motivating us was a kind of frustration – as young artists – with not having access to, say, the Durban Art Gallery and the Natal Society of Art (now KZNSA). We realised in retrospect that we were in opposition, or an alternative to those spaces. But at the time, we were just doing our thing. Many of us were interested in the alternative music scene, for example. And there were organisations like the Community Arts Workshop which was more like an education space. The phenomenon of doing an ad-hoc kind of thing wasn't unusual."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"It was a response to the moment. The Flat gallery straddled the ‘94 elections – literally eight months before and eight months after. It was a dynamic, crazy time in South African history, and we felt like anything was possible. 'Yeah, we're gonna have a gallery! We’re going to have an exhibition every week, or we'll have an exhibition on Wednesday and then one on Friday!' We were very idealistic. It was amazing, and then it got insane, and then it kind of burnt out when it was just too much."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"You could divide the history of The Flat into two halves. There's the first half, say the ‘93 period, where it is sculpture, painting, objects. It's traditional media, even if not traditional in content. And then the second part, the ‘94 period, where it becomes more performative, site- specific projects, more conceptual. The idea behind one of the performances was that people were invited to bring whatever they wanted to perform. I think one of the lines in the invite was, 'You can say anything, you can do anything.' Freedom was the main principle that we tried to adhere to. Going back through the book, I see that come up again and again."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"When we first started, it was a small group of us. We were all friends. I think initially many of us were in the Sculpture Department of Technikon Natal at that time. And then we had many friends and colleagues from painting who also participated, but I remember interviewing a colleague in the Painting Department many years later and she felt like we had formed our own little clique, and that she and a couple of her colleagues were separate from that, though they were involved and they did exhibit. But I do think we were aware of that feeling, and as the project developed it expanded, and we made a point of trying to reach out to people from other institutions. For example some of the artists teaching at the University of Durban-Westville. But yeah, I could see how it could have been perceived as a ‘scene’."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"There was this interview and somebody asked a question about the Durban art scene at the time, and the idea of young artists thinking that the world owes them something. 'If I talk to a curator, they're going to give me that show. Or they'll see my work somehow, and then put me in a show.' It’s about realising that it doesn't work like that, that the world doesn't come to you. You have to make your own world first, and then hopefully others will come to you because you've made something that they want to see. I do think it's important to get past that psychological bind of, 'I don't know how to do it. I don't have the money. I don't have the space.' Those are all legitimate problems, but maybe it's as simple as starting with a notebook. What is page one?"
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"We have all of these self-publishing tools but then you’re still calling out into the void. I think a critical thing is generating something that is meaningful. As artists we all fall victim to the idea that the audience has to be bigger and bigger. It's nice to have a big audience but maybe the audience is just 10 people and that can also be a meaningful exchange. It doesn't have to be five and a half thousand likes."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"What we sometimes forget is that we can make our own culture and our own community. And maybe if we start with that then it can become the building block of a career."
– Siemon Allen

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"I thought, 'It doesn’t need to be a commercial space, and I don't want to be a curator, so let's just go play.'"
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"With Social Muscle Club, initially I got a collaboration grant with Goethe Institute, which required us to include European artists in order to secure the funding. And then Pro Helvetia supported two Swiss artists. I was very transparent with the artists from Europe: 'You're getting your flights and your accommodation covered, but the per diems are going to be used to pay for the South African artists that we work with. And to make sure that we have things like beer and food for the opening.' There is this idea that when European artists get funding to come to South Africa, they basically just get a great holiday. I was like, 'What the fuck? No.' The initial funding I had for Alma Mater didn't have the constraint that European artists needed to be involved because it was from two private funds. But it was not a lot, it was 7000€."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"Molly Stevens, part of the Martha Collective, was introduced to me and we quickly merged forces to become ALMA MARTHA. She knew the young, hip artists and I was a newbie in Cape Town – although I had studied at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg back in 2006.) She introduced me to Mitchell Gilbert Messina and Lady Skollie who were in the first show. Later, we would always ask the artists who they wanted to work with. Things grew to include many artists, like Gitte Möller and we went church scouting together, and then we worked on Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain. It was just about talking to people, like Julia Rosa Clark who said, 'You have to meet Unathi Mkonto.' He is still one of my favourite artists."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"I feel bad that we couldn’t provide more production budget… We could only offer it to some people, once in a while, but we could at least cover pizza and beer. My job was building the space, discussing the needs of the artists, fundraising, designing the flyers and promoting."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"The person responsible for conceptualising the shows varied. Sometimes it came from me and then other times… Conjugal Visit was probably the best example of asking a curator to just go for it. I would still design the flyers to keep them ‘in our look’ but other than that, Khanyisile Mbongwe said, 'This is the theme, these are the artists.' With the first two shows, we tried to keep it quite light, like Pool Party and the jumping castle. I didn't want salon shows because I know South African artists have to make their bread and butter by selling work, and I didn't have access to people that were going to buy. What I had access to was: 'I can work hard for you and give you a space to do whatever you want, make you flyers and give you a tote bag and drinks as thank you.'"
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"I would have probably applied for more funding, and because we had such good documentation there was that potential. But the space got broken into… They took the lights and then built a small fire to see what else they could take. The only thing left was the non-alcoholic beer, which I understand."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"Like artists everywhere, there was the question, 'Who is our audience? We have a really nice group of artists coming, but are the locals coming?'" 
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"I wanted to continue. I didn't expect to leave, but because of personal stuff – I was 39, I wanted a child – it was time for more stability basically. If somebody had said to me, 'Can I take over that?' I would have loved that. Nico Athene asked for support and did a co-ALMA MARTHA after I left Cape Town with In Bed with Artists. If somebody wanted to reboot it right now, I would apply for Finnish money and give them all of the background information and any tools I could."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.

"There is always going to be one person who does most of the work. That doesn’t really bother me much, I would rather just do it than argue about it – which unfortunately still happened on occasion. The best part is working with artists when they’re excited to make something, and hanging out together. That’s the joy of it."
– Juliana Irene Smith

As part of her ongoing project Social, curator Khanya Mashabela collects oral histories of artist-led project spaces in South Africa to complement a growing archive of associated printed matter, photographs, and digital assets collated through an open call to local arts practitioners.